Week 49 TUESDAY: Abriendo Caminos / La Comunitaria TV

Greg: Hello Scott it looks like he's there.

Scott: We need Federico.

Greg: Let's see. I'm not seeing him in the list of callers here.

[child crying]

Scott: Hey Greg, his status is offline so he's probably bumped down to the bottom. He said that they've tried to turn it online and they can't seem to do it.

Greg: Oh he's calling now so what should I – let's see.

Scott: Everybody just say decline. We should probably tell him not to call because that'll confuse everything there'll be two calls. Decline and yeah he should be in the list down with the grey x's.

[child speaking]

Greg: All right here we go. But let's see. Let's try it here see if this will work. All right we got you.

Federico: Okay. There was something broke.

Greg: Yeah it was a little tricky. This is Greg by the way.

Federico: Who's speaking?

Greg: My name is Greg and I'm also with Basekamp just hosting the audio for this evening.

Federico: Okay.

Greg: So welcome. You're there we've got you still. Wonderful. Anyway hi. So how…

[child speaking]

Greg: Stephen, are you going to give an intro or I'm not sure how we were going to …?

Stephen: Yeah. Federico, can you hear me?

Federico: Yes I can hear you now but just two seconds ago I couldn't.

[man/child speaking]

Stephen: Okay. So there maybe moments when this doesn't work, if that happens just let me know and we'll let you know and then we'll like repeat stuff.

Federico: Okay.

Stephen: That's how it works when you use capitalism apparatus for free it works as well as it works.

Federico: Either sometimes.

Stephen: So listen, Federico welcome. It's great to have you with us. Actually I'm pretty excited about this discussion, this potluck, it's the 51st one or the 50th one that we've done in this year, examining what we're calling Plausible Artworlds or those kinds of art sustaining environments, and also of course beyond that life sustaining environments. And when I was talking to you not that long ago I guess about two weeks ago in Argentina we were just incredible in chatting about one thing and another and it just suddenly came up that you were working on a project, which in so many ways resembles the spirit of what we hope in Plausible Artworlds. In other words, this idea of what you call Long Live Diversity which is a project that Abriendo Caminos sort of linked into. But the idea of this is they need some to demote and diversity.

[man/child speaking]

        And in fact possible worlds or what we call Plausible Worlds, which are slightly more than possible ones because they actually exist, are diversed worlds. And I think that nothing can be more in tuned actually with what the incredible diversity that in the last 50 weeks that we've seen, not really seen but we've heard. So you're here you're the only representative of a collective which is very broad and very diverse in itself. And you're talking about three specific projects. One which I don't really know anything about which is Abriendo Caminos, the other one is one which you've been working on I think if I understand correctly a little bit longer, which is called La Comunitaria TV Community Television, and a third one which I just mentioned Long Live Diversity which is a newer project. But just, and I'll stop with this one remark, is that some of the people on this discussion have already met you but perhaps didn't know that they met you. I know that Scott Rigby. Scott, are you still with us?

Scott: Yep.

Stephen: Scott you've actually met Federico on a previous occasion. It was on the occasion where you met me at a Paypax Arts in I think it was 2004…

Scott: Oh you know what.

Stephen: …when Federico was involved in a discussion around the notion of reciprocal ready base representing at that time a collective in which he was involved at that time which was called The GAK the group with [Algejaraio]. And so I don't know if you recall him but he's sort of been sometimes in the shadows and sometimes in the spotlight of discussions that have been most important to me involving how art can connect to politics. So Federico I'll leave it at that and I'll turn it over to you if you want to present why you do what you do and how you do it, and since when and where it's all going, then we'll certainly jump in. Thanks.

Federico: Thank you Stephen. La Comunitaria TV and Abriendo Caminos is the same project really. The La Comunitaria TV is like the video branch and Abriendo Caminos is the collective where we have the video TV for those radio and graphics. So the modern growth is Abriendo Caminos and La Comunitaria TV was the project that's serve as [inaudible 07:38] TV, which had our own entertainment and we began to make some TV emissions around 2004 to middle of 2005. And it was a very interesting experience with a very low rating, that means just a few people could see or sign them and because most of them have cable TV.

        But was it very interesting for us who have the experience and to begin to work with media language and beyond towards it and the media TV went on after we decided not to make more TV emissions. So just for making TVs these problems about the name, not the levels of names, and sometimes they're more important than others. And I remember when you were talking the meeting we're having with in New York we have very good memories of this situation. And I remember we had very nice discussions and other [inaudible 08:44] at the gallery but those are the conflicts we have the [inaudible 08:48] Timeout Magazine.

Stephen: Yes because they said the opposite of what we were doing, exactly opposite.

Federico: That was very interesting the [inaudible 09:00] experience no but you were making such a big effort for explaining how I can change politics of life and the magazine was inviting people to see how I could do anything about that now.

Stephen: Exactly it was beyond belief but you're right exactly that was true.

Federico: But I remember also that we have this program where the schedule was basically traded with the demonstration against the world. But was a massive situation in New York it was very impressing for me to see these schools, to be in New York demonstration. And I remember that there were a lot of people there and I was very excited.


        When I read the newspaper the next day it was incredible to see how most of the headlines were talking about some kind of failure in the demonstration because just when you're before there was this massive historical demonstration before the war started. I don't know if you remember this.

Stephen: No I remember it very well. And I mean we decided not to do the talk at the gallery we decided to take part in the demonstration and then go to the gallery from the demonstration after distributing relevant material in the demonstration. So you're absolutely right the whole thing was spun, even though it was a very large demonstration, as being less significant than the previous one. You're right yeah.

Federico: Exactly. But if you see the story covered of the demonstration I think that this year they were one of the biggest demonstrations in human history but they were making a comparison with the demonstration of the year before, before the war started. And just talking about the cost of, talking about rating and about the effect of things or the work we have been making with the Abriendo Caminos and La Comunitaria TV is a very low rating work it's not something that has a massive effect. Only like residence it can have massive effects only when it's part of a more collective experience. But what we're doing now, most of the work we're doing, is to make work of bases. It's not what we call here in Spanish it's [inaudible 11:33] it means working with the bases.

Stephen: Yeah grassroots, grassroots.

Federico: Yes grassroots exactly. Grassroots work. And they use to make people produce their own media their own radio experiences and programs and to share time. And where you have quite a way from any kind of mainstream at the moment have been a very, very interesting experience, not only talking a collective but as an individual to mean – because in the moment we met I was in a very strange situation working with GAK. And we weren't really like touching the rising of this moment one of the driving of the political arts after the Seattle non-effect. But after this year after we split in those years to 2004, 2005 and I decided to return to this school and to be working in a place that is 25 kilometers far away from the downtown.

Stephen: Right. Yes it's very far, it's a very poor working class densely populated neighborhood right.

Federico: Exactly. But at the same time as we are doing this kind of grassroots work we are also trying to connect with some other subjects and not be reviewed to [inaudible 13:08]. This has been attention in the group all the time as thinking how to value our time, how to share time and to feel that we can do some groundwork this grassroots work, but also to participate in broader conflicts. For us it's very important to create into work with a coaching too no.

Stephen: For sure.

Federico: And in this moment we are also sharing [inaudible 13:38] time with a [inaudible 13:41]. You know Stephen and maybe the other members there have been some trials, in this moment lots of trials to, not only the military but also the civilians that took part of the Argentina dictatorship and we are helping with videos and graphics for promoting the social participation these trials.

Stephen: Yeah that's important maybe you could say a little bit more about that Federico. How you do that? What's the history of that? I'm not sure everyone is so familiar with that story.

Federico: Well I think it's interesting to know because it's very original I think. The situation in Argentina we have this terrible dictatorship. It was one of many but the last one was the worse one. And there was a political decision but was shared by many institutions, many social [inaudible 14:39] or Argentinean society that was the examination of a very broad territory that was composed by many political organizations. Some of them were armed but many of them were also, most of them, were grassroots organizations. And where it's calculated that 50,000 people were killed during the dictatorship was between 1976 and 1983. And when the dictatorship finished and it finished after the Venice or Falkland War that was the reason that they thought they had to finish was not because of the inner resistance but most because of this international trader.

When democracy arrived and all these crimes were revealed and they came to make trials and remained responsible of the dictatorship or just and some of the medium ranges also. But because of the military pressure and the pressure of other capitalist specters the trials couldn't go on. And then [inaudible 16:01] President a right to go forward he made implementation laws to release or to set free the military of the dictatorship. So this is the beginning of what we call the Impunitive Time now. The long years were they lost absolutely impunitive about the times of the dictatorship. But there was a very strong response of the CV society that wouldn't respect this opportunity or the situation where the media and the strongest representative of the political power tried to talk about some kind of specification, to look about forgiveness and the sociopath theory that Argentina was in some moment kept by two different things. Them on the voice on the right or them on the voice of the extreme left and democracy was to forget and forgive and just taking care of our press in the future.

But the Human Rights Organization mainly [inaudible 17:16] and their equals and they appeared in the late '90s take a very strong role, not only administration but also political world and communication role, in the legal world also. And just in 2003 the impunitive laws they were renewed or destroyed and the justice could make trials again. So it was a very original situation but since Sebastor more than two decades something that was supposed to be this perfectly important suddenly its [inaudible 18:04]. Nowadays like there are many, many trials happening here with society and in other provinces many stories, many histories that were kept under lock now are appealing them.

Stephen: And that's a really important thing. In fact just as an anecdote but it's a way of kind of making it tangible is that originally we had suggested you would talk, not tonight but in two weeks on the 21st. And in fact it works out better for you to talk tonight because as I understand on the 21st there's a very important judgment which will be handed down in an important case. Could you say something about that? And also that'll be a way to say what you do tangibly and materially and concretely when they're in the case of these much belated trials.

Federico: Okay. The 21 the sentences I don't know the Spanish word for this decision of the child supporting time that people have to be in jail or be berated. Now there's a lot of expectation about this. What's the word in English for this?

Stephen: Yeah the sentence, the sentence will be handed down. Yeah.

Federico: Okay. The sentence will be on 21 so there is to make a [inaudible 19:30] bell with heart and music and be waiting for the decision of the judges in the front of the tree of that building no. And it's a complex situation because the legal condemnation is just about of this what we're trying to do is to [inaudible 19:52] this legal condemnation with the social condemnation and that's our ability to call people, to join and to show this situation it's a real event. Not only is it happening just in the courtrooms of the criminal of justice.

Stephen: And so how do you do that? What do you do? I mean I know what you do but I'm asking you because I've participated in these carnavelist social condemnations but could you describe it?

Federico: Well there is these situations where you have been I remember like I think two years ago, no one year ago maybe, no two years ago.

Stephen: Yeah.

Federico: Because I thought it was a but now it's not but now he's…

Stephen: Iris Sedgeway yeah.

Federico: …because the situation was too slow and we want him to hurry up. And there is a lot of work are interventions or printing material for sharing with social organizations, going to school and top with students making the kind of work we do we were talking with chancellors about making medias and talking about present, about past, about history in our life. And we are also making more for this arrangement work that many of the places that were used for killing people some people call them Concentration Camps but they're very different to the Tramos German Concentration Camps. But another expression also is [inaudible 21:34] and there were many of these places more than 300 maybe 360 the whole country. And some of them now are being used by Human Rights Organization as memory plates.

        So there are a lot of activities also and they're really a problem. There is a lot of communication and creative work we are using to promote memory and to give these things a lack. We'll start making [inaudible 22:12] but they are in for what page? Page I sent you where we're the recording side of the situation. And we're making now a longer appeal about capital [inaudible 22:25]. Capital [inaudible 22.26] is a place that still works it belongs to the Army. And what's the biggest of these places? It's a place where more than 5000 people were tortured and killed. And [inaudible 22:42] is not a very famous place there are others that are very more famous than this. So we're now trying to make a media to the standpoint happen there. It's not very clear how was the organization of the situation but it was a trial going on and now we have a more clear picture. It's like a puzzle where you have to find different pieces and put them together their contradiction. It's very interesting work.

Stephen: For sure. And so you do this as a collective but what exactly does your collective bring to the operation?

Federico: Part of the media recording…

Stephen: Right.

Federico: …because it's very interesting the situation that part of the trials are being recorded officially but the images are not being allowed to be communicated until they have the final sentence. So it can happen two years or three years for the images the official images to be shared probably quick. So in some way you have a blackout of image in most of the situations of the trials; there are no image about this. So one of the ideas we have was to call students art students to go and draw during the trials. And we have a good success because there was a lot of people going there and just drawing situations.

Some of them may release their drawings some kind of expression is absolutely subjective but we were collecting all of these drawings and they will be published next year with a description of the sentence of the trial [inaudible 24:42]. So this was a strategy to try to break these blackouts of image about the trials. Some of the situation can be filmed there are very specific moments where you can take your camera out and make some pictures, but there're just a few situations. I think this is a very interesting thing because we're very conscious that we're no image, there is no information. It's very difficult to talk about these things when you don't have images. So the work we're doing is part of the media recordings of the situation that can be filmed and filming the activities that are around the [inaudible 25:27] and also the graphic designs for all these situations.

Also we're making a map that you can see in the [inaudible 25:39] web page with an interactive map where there's also printed material where you can see the Argentinean map and you can see the points where you have trials and which other situations are having these trials.

Stephen: Do you have a link that you can send of that to us?

Federico: Yes. What I see here is the things we can log off and also something that just because problem with [inaudible 26:11]. I can send you an email if you want.

Stephen: You can send it in the text.

Scott: Stephen for some reason I'm not sure why we're able to add them to the conference but we're not able to…

Stephen: Okay. Okay.

Scott: But you know you could either send it to email or – is it off of one of the three, is it off of…

Stephen;        No it's on the He-Ho side. I'll find it I'll get it for you.

Scott: Okay cool.

Federico: I can send it to you in this moment.

Stephen: Okay.

Federico: Maybe you can pull them.

Stephen: I will.

Federico: Okay.

Stephen: For sure yeah.

Federico: Because in there you will see in the first page part of the work we have been doing is just they're in the opening page.

Stephen: Okay.

Scott: Federico.

Federico: Yes.

Scott: I just had a quick question in terms of my lack of knowledge of the political system there. If there's this control over images to what extent are the images you produce suspect to be censored or taken off the internet or like to what…

Federico: No there is no – that's not the situation. The situation is that the image we are producing are perfectly even we don't trace any kind of censorship. The problem is that in most of the trial the situations were these guys are there being judged you can go there and follow the situation completely but you're not allowed to bring cameras or videos or photographs. So we're not having the situation to record.

Scott: Is there any sort of understanding as to why or is this always the case?

Federico: No every tribunal has different laws and different information. So some of them we could go and film, but for example, the ones that are being developed in the capital in Buenos Aires you cannot do it.

Stephen: Do they give any sort of reason?

Federico: Yes it's because of protecting these guys before they are condemned.

Stephen: Okay.

Federico: You should take care of them no.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: Image.

Stephen: Okay understood.

Federico: But it's not only that it's also some way of by saying this is totally farced. It's totally farced where many, many sectors you can picture it in a country where the justice was also part of the dictatorship. We don't have a real democratic justice at this moment no.

Stephen: Right. Right.

Federico: The trials are also very important because they need conflict inside the justice institution.

Stephen: So I don't mean for this to sound like you're providing a simple service but to whom are you speaking? Like who's your audience with this work? Is it anybody who will see it or is it for a particular section or sector of the public?

Federico: Well to be true there are [inaudible 29:36] and a specific audience. The desire is to make the wider audience that is possible but what is a specific audience it must be taking into account the support of social organizations the verified of installation of groups where the memory work and the human rights history is important for building identity.

Stephen: So in essence you're building an archive. This is something we talk about a lot I think in our…

Federico: Exactly.

Stephen: Yeah okay.

Federico: In some ways an archive.

Stephen: Yeah.

Federico: But we expect to be a very active archive. We want to use it as tools using only as tools for [inaudible 30:19] people to participate now.

Stephen: Right that's great. I think that's exciting.

Federico: Yes it is because also it's very happy because it's not that culture society is really taking care of these and it's not that everybody understands that this situation is very important for the present and the future.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: Because it's such a bad history that not everybody wants to see [inaudible 30:47] because only to here again and on the testimony and the people that were in culture there and the things they saw it's not a [inaudible 30:57].

Stephen: Right.

Federico: So many people are really happy. Actually most of the Argentinean society are satisfied with just this time when you arrived and this is very important because there was a low moment in Argentinean history and you could feel that this thing was not really important for the whole but just for the people that had been in some way [inaudible 31:21] like this. Finally it was really important and I really think that the clarity of the Kissinger Program was a very, very, very, very extent deal than relation of the punitive. And this is a very fascinating question because you have from this [inaudible 31:46] to this moment you have a very strong economic development and capitalist experience, but at the same time you have a lot of work regarding human rights and very lax of the human rights movement.

        So it was some kind of [inaudible 32:05] between their [inaudible 32:07] and the economics with some very important gestures from the state where the past was being kept away. Some of it was something that you could talk about much. And you can see that in the TV many programs in the film production. You can see that there's some kind of common culture where many people participate.

Stephen: Now that's a point, if I can just interject, that's a point Federico that I'd like you to elaborate on. Because I remember when you first stated, and maybe you'll have to go back a little bit in time, when you first told me you were working with this new thing called La Comunitaria TV you gave me some links to go and look at them.

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: And you gave me a warning. You said "You know this is not going to look like the kind of conceptual art that you're used to looking at. It's not going to look like high production value television." And it didn't and I think that's what is so unbelievably great about it actually is that it doesn't look like everything else it doesn't look like anything else. Could you talk a little bit about the aesthetic experience you've had of doing this political type of work?

Federico: Yes. We're having lots of discussions now about these because we have an aesthetic but this is something to a great extent is due to technical tools. We are really working with a very simple video camera and normal computers. And we have some kind of cheap aesthetic I think it's due to the tools we have, but at the same time we realize that we cannot fail because we have part of our work is relationship the problem with the mass media.

One of the first works the La Comunitaria TV made was a map of the big media groups to show the incredible amount of concentrations of TVs and radios. Well the same thing with this happened in the whole world. This incredible whole world concentrated in the production of images. And we are sure that we cannot do the same type of very sophisticated image production and we also believe that there is a lot of contamination of these and sometimes work and other times and with very simple images. It's also a way of saying "Okay we're a talking in a different language. Now we are not part of TV we're not part of the mainstream. This is a work which you have to see in another timeframe, another [inaudible 35:03].

But at the same time we need to be a little bit more, we need to work better with the images. And we are trying to have some experiments where we can have more sophisticated addition work because we see that we are living in a world where the people are watching a lot of images, a lot of things, and some way they we're handling with so many languages that to keep someone attention for 10 minutes or 15 minutes is also quite complicated. But the work we are doing now as we're not making this TV emissions but we are meeting groups showing the [inaudible 35:48] and using the [inaudible 35:49] as material for discussion allow us to create an environment before we showed the images and to create this openness I was referring to. I don't know if this answers your questions Stephen.

Stephen: No it answers it in a way that I wasn't expecting. It's kind of takes it in a different – well it opens up a whole new perspective. But I was really thinking more of the nuts and bolts of that experience we have. Because Federico I mean I know you don't want to talk about the GAK experience and it's not what we're talking about tonight but what I found most compelling about the GAK and it's through the GAK that I met you…

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: …was that it was a type of conceptual art of the highest level of political corrosiveness because in fact it was somehow releasing the total logical imperative of conceptual art on the real, it was unleashing it, it was making it dangerous. It was actually not about the consumption of signs and symbols but about participating in their production. And I mean I can give countless examples and I've written about it and the point is not to talk about that but it's important for people who are listening to understand that you came from very unusual – I mean it's almost unique to, well it's not unique to Argentina because you do find examples elsewhere, but it was a very particular case of using conceptual arts skills with graphic design and political activism.

        And then you took that to La Comunitaria TV and the results looked very different. I mean it was a kind of a shock. And I think that was a really interesting move. I think it's one that almost no conceptual or post-conceptual artist who would dare to make. Now I just wanted you to kind of talk about that experience like what it was like to work with those people you know.

Federico: Okay I think it's as you say the GAK wasn't in any situation where there was a lot of discussion about the visual production. And what makes a single analysis of the political situation and then really trying to discuss very deeply about which where the images and the awards that could be [inaudible 38:27]. And this denounce was related to punitive time and punitive times we're talking about now. So we were trying to make connections between past and present. And I think punitive was part of the normal social life and [inaudible 38:50] saw very strong effects to see these images because these images didn't refer to the things that many people think or really have image about this.

        So sometimes it's very simple images or very cheap images you were appealing to thousands of people and in some way were sharing your point of view. In some way I think that the graphic work or Abriendo Caminos and the La Comunitaria TV the thing that follows this kind of work. I will send you this production because I think I only share with you the media but it's also the writing on the graphic material. But the fact that when you're making grassroots work and you make a collective, another thing about Abriendo Caminos collective, the collective would make with all our groups for making grassroots production. You have to decide a listening with the people that you're working with who are making a new video. And in some way your language will be some kind of mixture of the presentation culture of the gross that they're participating.

        So it's very different to work in a group or artist that has this culture or conceptual art and this close when you're working with that young group of people that lives on the outskirts of when I'm [inaudible 40:21] and from fear you have to create an email situation and decide together which way this will be told. So it's a very single language where you can see [inaudible 40:35].

        Now but also I think the work about urgency, about working in this situation of denounce [inaudible 40:48] this very addition to the work you can make when you're working grass root work and you're talking about different things and this very, very low work now. So you're not trying to shape people's attention about the problems but to create a video that will be part of discussion. It's a video that the downside of this whole we'll share with the families. This is a very complete audience I think who we are dealing with.

Stephen: Greg you had a comment about that. Videos is a great discussion.

Federico: Hello.

Greg: Yeah sorry I was unmuting the mic. Yeah I mean I think in our sort of video culture now the discussion is less about sort of an exchange of ideas based on what's occurred or what we've watched in a YouTube culture where you're just reacting and there's no dialogue. It's simply a one way discussion, but I love the idea that you were thinking about videos which create, or as Stephen's written, spark a discussion. I mean I think that's really poetic it's also very useful. I don't know I oftentimes don't think that videos create discussion but rather stifle discussion in many respect. So I like that sort of positive activist's sort of stance that you're sort of taking by saying that.

Federico: Yes or this believing that you'll be there we create a discussion but this is the way that we're working the [inaudible 42:37] to be there so you didn't [inaudible 42:38] them or whatever. We use them in social situations right.

Greg: Right.

Federico: So you are talking we're in a group of 30 young people that they allow you and you allow them and you have to break ice, you have to start a dialogue, you have to create some kind of common ground to begin the discussion and to create new work and with it we produce the video or starting it. I think it's a very, very useful way of people understanding what you want to talk about and what do you want to do then. And it's not believing that the object by itself will opening discussions in a spontaneous way.

Greg: Right. Yeah no that makes absolutely perfect sense. I mean I know that when digital video became sort of a consumer based medium and we said "Oh look at how digital video will democratize the entire process for all people know that we can all make films.

Federico: Yeah.

Greg: You know that's exactly the problematic thinking that I see associated with videos in general. So I think what you're saying makes perfect sense. The opportunity the ability is there but without extending that into sort of the trajectory of whatever the goal of the group that's sort of an empty rhetoric.

Federico: Exactly. Yes, yes I don't believe that. We're being more democratic because there is a lot of media. I think it's a very big problem what you're talking about because this production we're seeing in so many cameras and people showing them in their face or in their blood and etc it's also a lot of noise. But it's a lot of production it was never so much production of images. And that doesn't mean really that we are communicating more.

Greg: Right. No I think that's it too like what you just said there's a lot more noise, there's a lot more to compete with you know.

Stephen: So in that case Federico what do you mean by diversity because I wanted to bring you onto that other project. Kaveeve and I did that we've actually…

Federico: Yeah.

Stephen: What is [inaudible 45:05] exactly then if it's not noise, it's not more of the same what is it for you? What are those voices that you want to bring into the picture? I mean not only why do you want to but what are they?

Federico: I think it's very difficult to talk about diversity. Diversity is I think something very good that appeared in the last years of the political value. As political value where any kind of future we can decide has to be the open to many ways of living life. And I think that we wanted to talk about this, about the problem of diversity we're showing the social more related to the problem of [inaudible 46:01] because Argentina is a place where grass root is not being discussed as much as it should. We're a country that has an image that we are very democratic mixture of phrases. There are very natural trained expression about this.

        And finally we talk about the [inaudible 46:23] it's the place where they race is mixed. But what we have really was a very strong political immigration or the shadows of this country decide that this place was this moment in 19th Century was turning them to black and looking for more black and more white and European image. They brought lots, lots of people from Europe to Argentina. And this is now for the first time in Argentina say in the last 10 years and I'm talking about the Italian after this the [inaudible47:05]. The problem of diversity of our regional groups in Argentina began to be part of their change.

        So slowly we're talking about diversity in relationship with the cultural diversity of Argentina has been neglected because of this very strong and powerful wide European sender culture. Well those who are diversity in the biological sense because the Argentina now is leaving these incredible moment of this whole big expansion where most of half of the ground can be culture is being used for transgenic [inaudible 47:50]. Maybe it's the country with more transgenic perfection in relationship with total amount of land with no money in the total sense but in the [inaudible 48:01] tense where the most incredible enchanted place.

And this is terrible because lots of natural environments are being destroyed and this some kind of green carepics is being created. And we're losing lots of biological diversity. So in a way we were trying to tolerate diversity using human diversity and biological diversity as values tools to protect. But we didn't show too much diversity or human or biological but we were talking about the obstacles for enjoying diversity. And these obstacles were two we were talking the main obstacles for enjoyed diversity and the ground of the soybean production and the biological aspect and the racism the undercover racism and the human aspect.

And also connecting what you were talking before about [inaudible 49:09] it's not the [inaudible 49:11]. Also what's her reaction of the famous [inaudible 49:20]? Do you remember another word was possible [inaudible 49:23] and some kind of rejection of that? We have to think in another world but it's not like that. Now we have to open the possibility of many, many potential worlds not trying to picture which is the world we have to be altogether.

Stephen: Exactly. Well that's exactly why I say it's very much in the spirit of Plausible Artworlds and it's the reason why we didn't call it possible artworlds because Possible Artworlds would have been, I mean for us, it would have been to give an enormous huge cake and it would be to have caved in completely to the mainstream artworld that likes to call itself The Singular Artworlds.

Federico: That's right.

Stephen: And to say that other worlds are possible is to say, yeah but they don't actually exist they're just kind of possible. It's just like these pipe dreams that exists sort of parallel to the sad reality. No I mean I think the point that you're making if I understand it correctly when you say that [inaudible 50:27] is that it's not just that easy you don't just sort – you can't just say it that way you have to say that if diversity exists then other worlds exists, at least in an embryonic form.

Federico: And I think that as you people and us and so many people around the world we're really creating this sorts of the works not this embryonic form of possible works. And I think it's very hard and very impossible and it's not even desirable that we share a common match of her world we have to go on with our experiments. But if we think back there is a world that exists now and I think that joining and the way of joining is to fight against this world. Now I think we can have our agreements in the ways of [inaudible 51:16] the production of normality. We have a common front on many, many fronts indeed but there is one world now, we know that there is one world.

Stephen: Yes.

Federico: And part of where some of us need to create new things the type of worlds someone must be also to fight against the normality. So when we're talking about the possible world is to say we have to protect a little of diversity but we have to join also in starting against normality.

Stephen: Federico I'm looking at the front page of your Web site the [inaudible 52:00] Abriendo Caminos blog spot and there's a map there, a purple map.

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: In the middle there's Clarene. What's this project about?

Federico: Yes this image you're seeing is just the back of the big media map I was talking about. Clandestine is just a lot of people the main part. It's the main group in Argentina.

Stephen: Okay it is the map I see. Okay.

Federico: It's an interesting situation we're working with this. We're making a mural about this media group and one of this Clandestine Detention Center because it's a very, very heavy story. Claudine was a very important newspaper was created in 1945 and just under the dictatorship was only one newspaper but important for the medium class. But during the dictatorship they began to grow because they made a very sound business the military [inaudible 53:06]. In this business was some kind of gift the military were living to Clarene it was a plan for producing newspaper. The paper for the news. Argentina dictatorship was important most of the paper was using for their tabloids.

        So [inaudible 53:26] with all their newspaper like [inaudible 53:30] and there were some were having their own paper factory, so they have very, very cheap paper for producing. They could control most of the prices of the paper for all their newspapers. And in exchange of that they were some kind of minister of information for the dictatorship because they were giving the nice picture about what was happening in Argentina not printing news about the disappearance or the tortures I'm talking about all the achievements of the dictatorship. Now they knew our work the dictatorship the military will remember by self couldn’t do. That was the media one.

        And after this after having this new business they began to grow out and the democracy arrived they bought a very important radio and then a TV channel. And then during the national expansion of the Men and Gorbaman they began to grow up and having lots of TV channels, cable TV, internet and suddenly they were the main media group of Argentina. And with this very, very interesting it's also you know that in Argentina there's an organ problem we've got many children where children disappear working by families, military family's relatives of militaries…

[child speaking]

        …were changed the names were changed and they were not [inaudible 55:10] of these new families. So there are 400 of these children of Clandestine in the hands of these families. There's 100 of them that have been identified and [inaudible 55:23] but this is not a problem. And it was 32 of these kids were given to the owner of Clarene during the dictatorship. And this is a big problem that now has also legal consequence now that there's a child about this. Or the countries waiting for the DNA analysis of these kids this girl and a boy that refuse to give their blood for checking with the genetic databank. But the fact is that the woman the person as their mother is the owner of Clarine.

        So I showed you also patterns of the war we're doing now connecting the past with the present and Clarene is the main political party fort his current problems with the government.

Stephen: Yeah. Can I just say something because it's clear what you just said but if you have never heard this story before it seems so unbelievably insane…

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: …that it might be difficult to understand is that the people who were arrested some of them were women who were pregnant and before they were killed they were allowed to give birth to their children, then they were killed.  The children were given to families of the military dictatorship and to their friends. So it means that if the owner, the woman who owned Clarene who was infertile actually was given two children those children their mother was murdered shortly after their birth.

Federico: They had two different mothers.

Stephen: Their origin was never acknowledged. And what I think Federico is saying is that beyond the human horror of this 400 cases of it is that if these people are not cooperating, if they're not doing a DNA, if they're not saying I want to know where I came from, is because there's a tremendous amount of money at stake, which shows the complicity between big money, big media and military dictatorship in Argentina. So just to clarify that.

Federico: Thank you. It's just as you said it's something unbelievable this is for making a Hollywood movie because there are a lot of plots and situations. Like for example, in some moment justice decided to go by force and they wear underwear for making DNA analysis.

Stephen: It's not funny but it's so insane.

Federico: But finally they have this underwear of the lady. The guy for some reason was not using underwear in this moment but his pants out. They were at home now it was not on the street or in the [inaudible 58:19] but when they made their [inaudible 58:22] analysis they found not one they made but three. So these people were prepared for the situation.

Stephen: Yes.

Federico: And they were close but were contaminated with other people's DNA. So show you a very complex situation between the justice, the police, these firemen, the government, it's really something very, very hard. I think it's just an example we're talking about a very complex club where you see that all these situations are not finished. They're not finished by many reasons but one of them is where you have the habit of children they don't know their origins and they have a cloud of impunitive on them on [inaudible 59:13] of people that could help the parents out with reality but they are still keeping some kind of secrete Clarene.

Stephen: Sure.

Federico: Oh it's really depressing what is happening.

Stephen: Just to shift I don't want to take all the time from other people, but just to shift now one of your projects is the Tasha Dehara Mentas the [inaudible 59:40], so the workshop of popular communication tools.

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: What do you mean by tools? I mean could you unpack that a little bit?

Federico: Yes communication tools is all these matters we're talking about is making a [inaudible 59:58] or is making a poster or a mural or a video or a radio program. And what we do is we go to culture centers or we go to schools and we work for some days, normally with junk guys 16, 17, and 18. And what we do is to make them work in communication. So we have a format that we have we're always showing this media map. We talk about concentration of communication in a few hands. We talk about the consequence this has in not only the political but in the shaping of identity, in the shaping of the [inaudible 1:00:44] etc. Then when show one of our medias but it's this [inaudible 1:00:51].

Stephen: All right yeah.

Federico: It's a very strong video because you can see a very powerful [inaudible 1:00:59] in the videos its powerful because it shows this situation very well where you have thousands of guys in the street in front of the apartment of [inaudible 1:01:08] that was one of the men responsible for the dictatorship. And what they're shouting their they're singing there they are expressing their feelings about that. They're facing the police to be able to express their rejection. And after we talk about this we make a connection between the media map and history. This take normally just one hour and a half. And then we decide well it's very important that all of us be able to create our own communication during the next three days you will choose a subject, something you are worried about or interested about. Into the subject you will have to choose one message, just one message an important message to share. And I call in a message to better [inaudible 1:02:04] a strategy of communication. So it's a very nice work to do these people.

        Most of the children are in schools they are very [inaudible 1:02:14] and oppressive. And the time that we are there they can have the experience of deciding by themselves. It's very antonymous in a way or some kind of work to decide together what they want to talk about. And what is incredible is the activity that young people have and the eagerness to do things. This is work we make with the [inaudible 1:02:40]. And then entirely after three or four days working with them we have communication or two. We have media normally or we have a graphic production and then we have to decide a way we need this to be. Many times their projections in the schools or in the culture centers where they invite their families and there're always some kind of shock because what is interesting is the children are more readily in school or in these spaces. Also the young people that put more energy for this situation so this change also some relationship between them and their teachers and their families. It's a nice work.

Stephen: Who do you work with when you work with these kids? I mean there's you I kind of know your background you're a biologist become conceptual artist, and for a long time political – I should say one thing also about you that I know is that after living in exile during the dictatorship you made the conscious decision to be a political activist and always to work anonymously. So it's not like you hide your name but you never sign your name to projects right.

Federico: Yes. The work of which I share is Abriendo Caminos work so I share this work with [inaudible 1:04:11]. And we are not always together there are always two or three. We split the situations. So it’s the most intensive work of Abriendo Caminos to work here.

Stephen: What about this motion of anonymity? That's a question of which actually is pretty interesting to us when we think about worlds. Actually I didn't even mean to ask you that question but now that it's come up I want to pursue it a tiny bit. How does that work? I mean you're more depersonalized than anonymous because you'll say oh yeah we work with [inaudible 1:05:06] and so on and you don't hide your name. But one of the problems I know that you have with the GAK was the names became a little bit too important the way they are in the artworld. But I think it's more than not just self-promotion I think there's a kind of politics to it and I'd like you to say something about that.

Federico: Look I'm not against using your name because finally we use it in some spaces. We're not hiding or working in the [inaudible 1:05:41]. I think the discussion was to have a common name not a powerful collective name and I think during the GAK times and also Abriendo Caminos the discussion was to say okay we have to build a collective identity and we have to be very aware of all the problems that are connected with the names because in spaces like the artworld, not only the artworld more so the media world, but whatever culture of work the name becomes very, very important or you have this connection and conflict between resources. And resources money capital or social capital or there are a lot of noise about this.

        So I think that also it's some kind of way of putting the pressure on the egos of saying that we're enjoying this time we're sharing this time not for making an [inaudible 1:06:44] but because we want to create something that is new. But at the beginning, for example, when I started to make political work in the university we also had this strategy with the group I was working with. But also in the beginning of the democracy you feel some pressure that you didn't want to be very, very shame. You were not very sure about what could happen if you used your own name for everything you did. So it was also some way of protection. Now the situation has changed a lot because we have this formal democracy for 50 years and I think with all this development of revolution of the web the political of anonymous is really reduced.

So I think there are very different reasons to work in anonymous way but I think it's good for a specific situation it's not something you really have to do. I think that it's good that Argentina also a very long culture of being anonymous because it's a country where you had more time under dictatorship under democracy. So protecting the identity was something shared by a very wide territory of different social organizations was a way of protection. But when we were talking about this problem with GAK more than safety I think it was it was this rejection to the way that the artworld would be which means [inaudible 1:08:34].

Stephen: Yeah right.

Federico: But I can [inaudible 1:08:41] lot of the media world and I'm very happy to know the names of the people that are doing the nice thing. Everybody every can do it's going to be the same person all the time. I think we should play all the different activities. In fact we are not the same person all the time we're not the same person with the people we love or with our family or work. And we have a lot of schizophrenic pressure. So I think it's good to be aware of this and be able to put your name on some situation and then another name for another situation and playing with different identities. I think they only want to discuss our way of starting to do these. To say "Okay I'm not the same guy all the time, now I can change my name for every action." The name also is part of the action so sometimes you can have really nice names for an action that can also help to give them a new meaning.

Stephen: Very definitely. Greg did you have a question because I have another one but it's kind of goes in a different way. Do you want to pursue that a little bit?

Greg: No not specifically. I mean I think this whole chat has been really amazing about how we've been talking about all these different things. And I really am curious, and this is something we always ask our guest, is what does the future hold. I mean I know that a lot will happen what did you say on the 21st, but is that the next sort of stage of this project or are there things that you'll be looking to complete in the next few months or year?

Federico: Well it's a good question. I think it's a big problem because the situation that all the work of the human rights is trite against impunitive has a big problem. So many people participated it was not just a few guys. You could dedicate all your life to follow these guys as they went through trials and not doing anything else. And even in that case you couldn't put them all in child. So I don't know what's going to happen now but the situation of 21 is original because it's one of the first trials that's going to end and we have the sentence, so it will be open in this situation.

        About future well there are a lot of questions. We want to go onto work this grassroots work. And I don't know what we are going to do with the trials of next year. We are in a moment of lots of discussion inside the group of how to dedicate with time because what we were talking knowing this chat I think it's the potential that there is when we do the work in a specific territory and there are all these problems of human rights and natural situation the media groups also needs lots of time. So we've seen all the time divided, not only because we have to work for surviving but our free time or political time has also many, many fronts which have to decide what we're going to do next year. What will be our main focus?

Greg: Yeah it sounds.

Federico: We will go on all these situations of trials will go on because we are just a group that are making part of this work of issues and all the friend organizations are going to go on with this. But this is really an open question because there are not many experiences about it.

Stephen: Federico I have two kinds of questions very different. I mean when we last spoke we talked about what I think is a very interesting conceptual project that was done by a young, well it was put together but it wasn't done by him he just put the book together, by a young guy called LaRosa called [inaudible 1:13:03] Gabrielle Lopez about the third disappearance of a man by the name of Lopez. Lopez who was first sequestered kidnapped by the military dictatorship but somehow survived. And because he was a key witness in these trials they're ongoing disappeared again, in other words he was kidnapped and probably killed when [inaudible 1:13:36] killed. And there was a big human cry and then he disappeared from the media.

So this project that has been done by a number of different artists but what they call the third disappearance of Julio Lopez right. Julio is it or Gabrielle?

Federico: Yes Julio.

Stephen: Julio Lopez. And so they've made it their point that no one shall ever forget that there is so far no answer to how it is even under democracy, even under a government that pretends there's human rights and democracy in Argentina that they cannot answer the question why it is that a key witness has disappeared in the middle of a trial. And even though they know who did it for reasons of political power can't say who did it. Now you could say such problems exist in the United States they exist everywhere but what was interesting to me is what your analysis of it was. And I thought it was interesting artistic perspective is because you said it's not an interesting question to say where is Julio Lopez if you don't also associate it with a different question. Could you unpack that because I was really fascinated by the way you described it to me last week?

Federico: Yes I remember we were talking about that and it was a very strong shock because it was a new disappeared after more than 20 years. It was like a nightmare that was common but again this is not only the case that this happened also woman who Santa Fe promised that was killed in a very strange situation but she was also witness once this [inaudible 1:15:26]. But I think that the problem is that the Julio Lopez was showing the police, the police of Buenos Aires that is the biggest police force in Argentina, was not under control of the government not the strict government control. Because it was the mafia everybody knows that the mafia. We do in Argentina we want to make a remake of Godfather the [inaudible 1:15:58] actors we'll be using a police unit. And so it's a very strong complex situation.

        But when this happened all the human rights group they had to discuss how are they going to go on and I think it's a part of human flesh. But finally they could go on because also they were inside the police there are also different events. Now the police is not a [inaudible 1:16:31] but also being used by many groups to say okay this justice movement has now a very sound meaning because the problem still exists but the police has done so many people he used the feeling of Julio Lopez saying he was in this trial of justice so he has a chance to go on.

So finally what I think is saying just where is Julio Lopez is neglecting that we know that Julio Lopez was disappeared by a very specific mafia inside the police which is related to some guys that were being judged. But the main problem is that we're living in a territory where there is a very complex [inaudible 1:17:16] of forces between the friend Air Force and the [inaudible 1:17:20]. It's a very complex situation how to deal with that. If you have a image when you have a government and the government control all the territory of the police you're living in another reality.

Stephen: Absolutely. I think it's – I'm fascinated by the way you analyze this because not only does it make art into a kind of a useful – your outlook means that you take art to be a useful strategic tool. And you just don't sort of make an artwork about some sort of form of social indignation. You don't say "This is a scandal. Where is Julio Lopez?" You use art in a strategic way to produce certain results in the world, and yet I feel you're doing it in a way that doesn't instrumentalize art because a tool can be an instrument.

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: But this is a kind of a machine more than an instrument somehow. It don't know because you can see the danger right. You can see that if it's just about trying to produce some kind of immediate result and to measure the power balance and so on. But in fact it's more about pushing on a number of different buttons at the same time. Because you're not saying let's not ask that question because we might embarrass the government.

Federico: Of course.

Stephen: There's no censorship right.

Federico: You have to do something about you cannot neglect this way is very different to go and ask the government and only the government instead of going and ask the police directly.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: I think it is part of the left culture we have a conversation where you try to say we're all the same, police are all the same, they're all the same sharing some kind of disturbing state of [inaudible 19:27:6]. And I think it's very important to be able to make [inaudible 1:19:34] not to say okay not all these situations are the same we have to be able to make difference contrast, not for accepting them, not to melting with them, but to say okay this is all about complete shit and this and anonymous shit and they're not one for fracture, they're not diversity inside the shape like not being able to deal with any complexity of life or political.

        So in position to the Julio Lopez affair I think the answer was to talk about Julio Lopez to ask about him but putting your thoughts and the creativity team and going on with the justice situation.

Stephen: Right. Okay. And the other question, I said I had two questions because following up on what Greg was asking about what the future holds, the other question is that I have a kind of a skewed view of Argentina because I see – I mean my friends or my network in Argentina is largely based on sort of conceptual artist who are also political activist. So I have an idea that the entire country is sort of extraordinarily open minded and progressive kind of project, which I know also is far being the truth. But one of the particularities of your group as opposed to anybody else I know is that you have done a lot of work in the south of the country.

And when I say the south of course I mean with the Mapuche Indians. And I've actually asked that question to other groups for whom I have a lot of respect. The [inaudible 1:21:29] for example and I said yeah "Abriendo Caminos they work with the Mapuche Indians why don't you have any contacts? Why are you ignoring that whole social dimension?" And they say they just don't, I don't know, they're not point in there. So how does that work for you? How is it that you are point into that community and what kind of work are you doing with them and what will you be doing in the future with them?

Federico: With whom?

Stephen: Well I don't know exactly with whom, but I know you have done work in the south right…

Federico: Yes.

Stephen: …of Argentina.

Federico: Yes. This is going to go on because we have friends living in [inaudible 1:22:13] and they work all the time with this situation. So we try to go and we try to create also situations with them. But going to the first side of the intervention is that I really think that they're happening just to the political [inaudible 1:22:37] you become here. We're feeling quite far away from this specialist spaces. In this spaces it's normal to talk about relationships between politics and us and that means a lot of accumulation of previous and former debates. And in fact now we're not talking about that. It's not a problem. The contact I have with this group of people is very sharp and it was I think three or four years. Because I think that there are some limitations very strong limitations either discussions about that are being held that it's a small world.

And I think this small world would be more productive and more creative in another moment of history. I think that there are moments of more activity of more political activity like we have in the 2001, 2002, and 2003 when you have a population of people mixing and where you have a special openness in the people that want to make a sensitive part. But they're also some kind of recluse where the participation of artist is not as creative. I think one moment of this I'm talking is the person nowadays. I think that the possibility that the artistic groups they make a collaboration and it's very open to the situation of society.

Stephen: Right. Okay.

Federico: And this is a moment of a lot of I think creative work that's been happening and is happening in outside group not only social organizations. But of course there are moment people were mixing. We have very encouraging moment in 2002 and 2003 with the media classes and the working classes were mixing in these teams and they were sharing a lot of their production material and subjective production. And that was a moment that is not happening in the same way. I think it just happened.

[humming sound]

Stephen: Okay. Well I feel like one question I always have, not always but often have for our guest and it seems like an oversimplified question but doesn't really get to the heart of the matter, but that is I noticed you had mentioned that you're a biologist or at one point you considered yourself to be a biologist. And I'm wondering do you see yourself would you call yourself an artist? Would you feel comfortable calling yourself an artist or do you believe that it's silly to even think about that, or how do you think about that term?

Federico: I was talking with my brother two weeks ago about this and I told him that I'm not an artist. He was laughing at me because he thought it was like some kind of very childish attitude for me.

Stephen: How come did he say why?

Federico: When I travel I put myself as a teacher when I have to feel this when these things you have to feel the airport I put teacher. I think it's only because I have conflicts with the art world. I think a lot of my work can be thought of as an artistic production.

Stephen: Great.

Federico: Well I started biology and then began to do graphic work always with the political but I think if my country [inaudible 1:26:44] because I think we cannot generalize our countries with the whole world. We share some problems but I don't know when you go to a place like Germany where you have millions tens of thousands of artist living your political discussions are very different when you go to a city like Buenos Aires where you can have maybe [inaudible 1:27:11] at this being the political.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: It's a very small world you know everyone.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: And in some places I think the one half can be more strong and more political than another. If you got to [inaudible 1:27:26] you will find many groups [inaudible 1:27:31] an incredible constellation of groups then your attitude to outcome would be the same. I think art is a very powerful thing. It's a very good way for talking about other matters also. And in Argentina you have to talk in your words it's very strong any place. You can start talking about art and to talk about history or about human sensitivity or biological problems that are there. But we know that in many, many places art still has a very strong [inaudible 1:28:00] and the same work by itself creates some physical attitudes and obstacles to talk about the police.

Stephen: Yeah I think that's as this whole evening has been very insightful and well considered. It's a term that I struggle with often because I earn my living by teaching so I consider…

Federico: What do you teach?

Stephen: I teach media. I don't know how else to categorize it but my background is in Art but in media based arts. So I always was very reluctant to take on this title of artist and yet as soon as I started teaching it just kind of became a natural way of defining myself in an area that was not the art department. So it's funny how I fell back to art when I was outside of the art world.

Federico: Of course.

Stephen: And now what you said is very resonant with me. It's like I recall why I was so resistant to necessarily call myself an artist but it's probably out of laziness to some degree.

Federico: Yes. But I think it's good that we can train ourselves to give different answers in different situations. And to be able to say I'm an artist and to be able to say I'm a teacher or I'm whatever. I am [inaudible 1:29:47].

Stephen: Yeah.

Federico: I'm a researcher or do I have to paint this house inside? It's very [inaudible 1:29:55] if I simply play with the schizophrenic and I have to go…

Stephen: Yes.

Federico: …because we're suffering a lot with that. And being a schizophrenia in society is putting us have to deliver us perhaps it's schizophrenia it's not trying to be different.

Stephen: Well said.

Federico: Now we have to look at the democratic way in which all of the different identities can be and contributed to happiness but now I have a certain to just one.

Stephen: Right.

Federico: I just think the uniqueness seem very hard to achieve very shape.

[male/child speaking]

Stephen: I think we are great.

Federico: I hear that you have like the magic because it's in here. This whole discussion around slackers.

Stephen: Exactly.

Federico: But when your concept is published we can share it.

Stephen: Yeah.

Federico: And when I say we I'm talking just about myself.

Stephen: Listen I think maybe that's a really good note, we I'm just talking about myself, that sounds like a pretty good note to end this discussion. For me anyway it's 2:00 in the morning here or it will be in two minutes. So Greg thank you for anchoring this with your usual eloquence and thank you Federico for joining us from Buenos Aires to talk about these really fascinating approaches. I mean we have I must say diversity has been the watch word and the principle of certainty but tonight was a particularly diverse example of diversity.

Greg: Yes absolutely. Yeah thanks for joining us it's been really amazing.

Federico: Also very nice for me to it's like some kind of psychoanalytical situation of the things I like and they were allowed.

Stephen: Schizoid analytic.

Federico: Yes. I would like to know your faces and also to know what you are doing. And I think I not only would like to join more about the project to see the production you have to really know the participation.

Stephen: Wonderful we'd love to have you.

Federico: I think I saw you making love to this local work and this situations they're important in national terms. Yeah I think it's very important for us interchange with people with other realities. I think something that's very good for the potential and plus afterwards this way of interchanging.

Stephen: Feel free to join us next week if you're so inclined to over the phone. We're not going to be doing it so regularly in 2011 but there will be a few – I think we won't be able to resist having a few…

Federico: Okay.

Stephen: …discussions from time-to-time. But anyway feel free.

Federico: Okay thank you we would like that.

Stephen: Okay.

Federico: So until next Tuesday. Thank you very much.

Stephen: Thank you. Goodnight.

Federico: We said goodbye.

Stephen: Bye-bye.