Chat History with basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d" title="#basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d">Beyond Participation: Toward Massively Collaborative Worlds of Art (#basekamp/$aa0b248a22c6b97d)

Created on 2010-05-18 20:30:59.


BASEKAMP team: 17:59:28
hi everyone -- how are you all doing tonight?
BASEKAMP team: 17:59:48
we're waiting on a few people -- namely, tonight's guest ]smiley
stephen wright: 18:00:23
Hello all
Jason Wilson: 18:00:28
hi hi
BASEKAMP team: 18:00:38
hi Stephen
Cecilia Guida: 18:00:38
bojana romic: 18:00:40
Greg Scranton: 18:00:59
hello all
Greg Scranton: 18:02:35
Stephen thanks so much for your poignant and insightful email to Nick!
stephen wright: 18:03:21
Hi Greg -- not at all, thanks to Nick for his interest. Hope to pursue that conversation
BASEKAMP team: 18:04:01
btw have you all had a chance to take a quick look at the webpage describing tonight's chat?
BASEKAMP team: 18:04:09
BASEKAMP team: 18:04:44
here at the Basekamp space, things are slightly slow... weather is rainy again
BASEKAMP team: 18:04:54
but, there's beer on the table! and some food...
BASEKAMP team: 18:05:32
smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley smiley  smiley  smiley  smiley   smiley  smiley  smiley
Carl Skelton: 18:06:44
Hi everybody! Carl here in NYC
BASEKAMP team: 18:06:45
some of you may have noticed we sent out the announcement a few hours before our get-together tonight
BASEKAMP team: 18:06:57
hi Carl !
stephen wright: 18:06:59
Hello Carl!
bojana romic: 18:07:05
stephen wright: 18:07:14
Yes, Carl kind of saved the night!
BASEKAMP team: 18:07:19
Carl Skelton: 18:07:29
My apologies for being a bit late, I've had an advneture
stephen wright: 18:07:30
THough he had a longer standing invitation
stephen wright: 18:07:47
Tell us carl, what happened to you on the way to P@W?
BASEKAMP team: 18:07:51
no worries Carl
BASEKAMP team: 18:07:56
BASEKAMP team: 18:08:22
just to help make this smoother -- would everyone mind holding tight for a minute or two while we call Carl to test audio?
BASEKAMP team: 18:08:32
are you set up for that Carl?
Carl Skelton: 18:08:40
Had to load Windows on top of 389 GB to run an experimental chat client to field test in Haiti... and get across town in a downpour
BASEKAMP team: 18:09:00
you made it though!
Carl Skelton: 18:09:32
stephen wright: 18:09:41
Are you then going to call us, Basekamp?
BASEKAMP team: 18:10:04
Greg Scranton: 18:12:23
BASEKAMP team: 18:13:19
ok, so who's ready for a call?
atrowbri: 18:13:30
<----  smiley
bojana romic: 18:13:45
BASEKAMP team: 18:13:48
and... are any of you all eating or drinking where you are?
Carl Skelton: 18:13:55
should we?
atrowbri: 18:14:01
Carl Skelton: 18:14:07
BASEKAMP team: 18:14:08
stephen wright: 18:14:08
Yeah, here it's beer at midnight
Greg Scranton: 18:14:33
ready. I have green tea from the fine dining establisment "WaWa"
BASEKAMP team: 18:14:37
this is where we're at:
Matthew Slaats: 18:14:53
It's never too early for a gin and tonic.
Greg Scranton: 18:15:37
Stephen, yes I will surely follow up with Nick and should anything come of it feed it back onto you.  Thx again.
Carl Skelton: 18:15:41
Okay I'm back with a little bit of St. Chinian (did I spell that right?)
BASEKAMP team: 18:15:57
very nice!
stephen wright: 18:16:04
Spelling's good, how's the taste?
BASEKAMP team: 18:16:16
ok, we'll just call everyone - even the few of you who can't or don't want to pick up can just not pick up
Carl Skelton: 18:16:18
I'm enjoying it!
BASEKAMP team: 18:16:39
smiley smiley smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley  smiley  smiley smiley smiley smiley
Greg Scranton: 18:16:45
do it BK!
Greg Scranton: 18:17:58
BASEKAMP team: 18:18:05
BASEKAMP team: 18:19:47
howdy megfrisch
Meg Frisch: 18:19:54
BASEKAMP team: 18:21:27
also eating
atrowbri: 18:22:14
did they get your permission to use your likeness on that Scott??
Meg Frisch: 18:22:31
BASEKAMP team: 18:22:50
atrowbri -- LLLOOOOLLLLL
BASEKAMP team: 18:23:01
we're also eating
BASEKAMP team: 18:23:26
and listening to
BASEKAMP team: 18:23:48
L –O-O– KING at i mean
Meg Frisch: 18:23:50
thanks for the contextual visuals!
Meg Frisch: 18:24:10
helps ...
BASEKAMP team: 18:24:11
what r u eating mf?
Aharon: 18:24:24
oh.. got lost the audio.. smiley
BASEKAMP team: 18:24:36
ok rea-adding you aha
Aharon: 18:24:43
ta smiley
stephen wright: 18:25:31
BASEKAMP team: 18:26:00
for those only on text, FRC = request for comment
BASEKAMP team: 18:26:17
Carl is also talking about
bojana romic: 18:26:31
audio lost
BASEKAMP team: 18:26:41
bojana asking re-adding you
stephen wright: 18:28:26
everybody knows that open software really works, whereas public participation in urban space projects doesn't. So we need to vulgarize the capacity of artists to try out their ideas in open source logistics and platforms.
Aharon: 18:29:58
is this an exercise in concensus making?
stephen wright: 18:31:04
low overhead of producing digital prototypes, plus ready availability of models -- makes this online game a way of versioning ideas for urban space
BASEKAMP team: 18:31:38
* by vulgarize do you only mean to make readily available, to popularize, or to make a lot more coarse (etc)?
stephen wright: 18:31:43
taking on relational esthetics in a project where 98% of people have no idea it is even art
Aharon: 18:32:02
kinda sense.. do u want to make sense..?
BASEKAMP team: 18:32:13
bak in greg?
bojana romic: 18:32:25
(I still miss audio, sorry...)
BASEKAMP team: 18:32:30
another Q -- * what is the minimum size of the proposals - we can see the max size can be really large - but are public art / size concerns built intp the software?
stephen wright: 18:32:53
just post it
Greg Scranton: 18:33:15
yes ty bk
Carl Skelton: 18:33:20
posted file v14.11.png to members of this chat<files alt=""><file size="379676" index="0">v14.11.png</file></files>
Aharon: 18:33:40
i wonder how do u think it mi8 work if one/single person "participated in that mass project..
Aharon: 18:33:49
Aharon: 18:34:01
well.. u gotta b friends to c the dld
BASEKAMP team: 18:34:32
Q: also - earlier you mentioned open source economics - i think - just curious about if and where finances come into play here
stephen wright: 18:36:12
Sim City for real!
BASEKAMP team: 18:36:14
we're looking at the image now
BASEKAMP team: 18:36:37
fur reals
Aharon: 18:37:26
is the img on the site?
stephen wright: 18:38:50
Scott, where did you put the image online?
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:03
almost up...
stephen wright: 18:39:08
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:41
uploading to main page
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:45
ok - it's there:
BASEKAMP team: 18:39:51
click on the 2nd image from the top everyone
stephen wright: 18:41:07
average computer is now able to deal with sophisticated 3d imagery, and can use free software that'll make a game that looks as good and acts as good as high priced game software
Jason Wilson: 18:41:36
where does the geodata come from? the city?
Aharon: 18:42:42
paying?? not always.. smiley
BASEKAMP team: 18:44:29
26:45 that is incredibly quotable Carl
Aharon: 18:44:38
..but we have more energy for game than so called reality.. thats a given..
stephen wright: 18:44:42
big time time / energy available -- if one considers the amount already invested in Sim City etc as opposed to how much time / energy exists in a human lifetime
Aharon: 18:48:30
how long ahead is too long atime..?
BASEKAMP team: 18:48:38
we will try to queue up the questions... there have been a few here
Aharon: 18:49:11
u make me feel like a teanager, carl.. smiley
Aharon: 18:49:21
teen even.. lol
BASEKAMP team: 18:49:22
BTW, Miachael @ basekamp is involved in a project in New York seeking proposals that have a 100 year span
Aharon: 18:49:50
no id
BASEKAMP team: 18:50:34
Cecilia Guida: 18:50:55
stephen wright: 18:51:03
very good point!
stephen wright: 18:51:40
sustainability -- a euphimism for "same old shit" as long as you can get away with it!
stephen wright: 18:52:40
as soon as there is an image in a debate, that's what it's about. So we need to get collective images into collective debates if they are to be collective and proactive
Aharon: 18:54:04
how do u know all these things in terms of how things will/will not happen?? r u based these ideas on what, a research? what kind of research? a vision? not sure what all the axioms are based on..
Aharon: 18:55:12
(these things = the effects that you thing will happen..)
stephen wright: 18:55:57
straight out of Constant's New Babylon, but part of a participatory game of what is intended
BASEKAMP team: 18:56:02
Carl talkign about Constant
BASEKAMP team: 18:56:34
stephen wright: 18:59:30
providing some public oversight into use of public space while allowing / encouraging unfettered imagination around public project making.
stephen wright: 19:00:51
I got  dropped
stephen wright: 19:00:56
can you call me back?
stephen wright: 19:02:09
help -- I can't hear anything! Please call me!
BASEKAMP team: 19:02:20
stephen wright: 19:02:26
BASEKAMP team: 19:02:38
sry for delay - went to get a beer while listening!
stephen wright: 19:02:58
good reason
Aharon: 19:03:25
u presuppose certain things will affect in the way you want.. the whole point in life is that only dead things react that way.. where is the unknown in this stuff?? only the input??
BASEKAMP team: 19:05:16
btw, also eating
Aharon: 19:05:22
(stephen.. scott n i r doing vote-swaps..)
BASEKAMP team: 19:05:56
BASEKAMP team: 19:06:07
aharon, yes - do you want to mention this?
Aharon: 19:06:28
was that a secret?
BASEKAMP team: 19:06:41
aharon - no - i mean, might be good to mention out loud
BASEKAMP team: 19:06:51
btw, there is another park-related question here - a technical question about the software
stephen wright: 19:07:18
We have some questions in queue. Let's take them one at a time.
Aharon: 19:07:18
oh. well.. u can tlk of it as well or better than i can
BASEKAMP team: 19:09:10
Catherine, calling you now
BASEKAMP team: 19:12:21
Kris here has a question - about the paarts of your application that represent the natural world rather than the built elements -
BASEKAMP team: 19:12:54
is time represented - for example, does grass grow like a tamagotchi?
Aharon: 19:13:23
it is interesting how we ppl in general tend to imagine stuff based upon what we think is the cutting edge of tech in our time.. the amount of refs to "open source" nowadays kind of reminds me how the term "frame" was used in the 80's when video seemed really advanced stuff.. or how, everything was a system before it turned into networks and then platforms.. or historically, how the universe was a clock work just after clocks became wide spread and seemed high tech..
stephen wright: 19:14:29
Let me try and formulate a question about the "undigital" potential of all this. One of the most interesting things about our potluck with Freenode people -- major advocates, users and developers of open source software -- is how down-to-earth they are (for geeks). It is a way of life, as if it didn't matter if we were online or in the street, 2.0 or 0.0. What is the potential for using/ doing Massive collaboration without the technology? Maybe there isn't the possibility. But what is the degree of technical determinism here?
stephen wright: 19:16:30
so this is a way of bypassing expert culture.
Catherine Page Harris: 19:17:06
I'm interested in the translations, and retranslations of what seems like freedom in the virtual world, which is actually scripted by technology, and the analog world, the world of cars and freeways and houses and dinner and local food and networks sit on the ground.  I like the idea of doing Massive collaboration as street action, as innovation in farmer's markets.  We need to be down to earth, to learn our localities.
Aharon: 19:17:27
not much of an expert bypass.. in both ways, stephen..
Catherine Page Harris: 19:18:33
Stephen,  all culture is expert and all culture is amateur.
Aharon: 19:18:43
cos many times u need to exhibit some expertees to b a meaningful cog in the "community" - for one
BASEKAMP team: 19:18:51
Catherine i know you have to go soon - it was good to have you - would be interesting to have you in on the discussion a bit more at some point
Catherine Page Harris: 19:19:04
I look forward to it!
stephen wright: 19:19:17
Catherine says:   all culture is expert and all culture is amateur.
stephen wright: 19:19:36
well tell that to the people who have to live with their expert decisions imposed on them
stephen wright: 19:19:44
who were never consulted
Aharon: 19:20:19
what do u all think it might mean when a person/group thinks they can engineer society..?
stephen wright: 19:20:44
I think there are is already a class of people who think that!
BASEKAMP team: 19:20:47
^_^ smiley  smiley
stephen wright: 19:20:48
the expert class
Catherine Page Harris: 19:21:27
I do have to go, but I usually find that public process often hopes to invite everyone to the table, but somehow ends up with very few stakeholders able to come to it -- I guess I'm thinking about public process in landscape architecture which I've spent some years in and around.  I think that experts are often just well educated amateurs and often well meaning.  But perhaps that is too much optimism.  Then there are awful examples of experts who fail...
Catherine Page Harris: 19:21:35
good bye and more soon!
BASEKAMP team: 19:22:19
till then smiley smiley
Greg Scranton: 19:24:05
sorry guys need to cut out. lil man needs food. many thx Carl et al.
stephen wright: 19:24:30
see ya greg
Greg Scranton: 19:25:29
I will be @ BK next Tue Scott.  Will bring "country women" book to scan/return to Brett & Bonnie then.
BASEKAMP team: 19:25:31
later greggg!
Greg Scranton: 19:25:37
bye Stephen.
BASEKAMP team: 19:25:51
ah ok -- great! -- though -- i think they're in a little more of a rush than that :/
BASEKAMP team: 19:25:59
maybe Fedex? we can talk after
BASEKAMP team: 19:27:35
So how are decisions made in and around this application?
BASEKAMP team: 19:27:40
Is it a protracted yet meaningful concensus process?
BASEKAMP team: 19:27:57
 Or is it a "Do-ocracy", where everyone is free to step up as they're able and willing?
BASEKAMP team: 19:31:16
the 'objects' and context in the virtual world = the 'current state of the conversation'? or is there an a place for other kinds of discussio (text, audio, etc?)
stephen wright: 19:33:46
but concensus is not then the telos, not the goal and finality of the process?
bojana romic: 19:33:48
I have to go, it's very late here. Great talk, thanks!
BASEKAMP team: 19:34:32
see you next time Bojana!
stephen wright: 19:34:50
good night Bojana
bojana romic: 19:34:58
sure thing!
Aharon: 19:35:25
so.. in order for something to be done there needs to be a general agreement - in this case, what are the mechanisms that make sure it is not a dictatorship of the users/the-many? what is there to support the individual??
Jason Wilson: 19:36:17
gotta run, will definitely be involved in conversations and thoughts
BASEKAMP team: 19:36:28
aharon's question is sort of the opposite of stephen's current question on audio...
Aharon: 19:37:54
not sure if the opposite.. more like another fascet, i think
BASEKAMP team: 19:39:38
similar question - yes, maybe focusing on another point in the discussion
stephen wright: 19:40:09
Here is the example I was thinking about -- the Karl Lueger statue.

Karl Lueger to be tilted

The winner of the competition to Transform the Karl Lueger Statue into a Monument Against Anti-Semitism and Racism in Austria proposes that the statue be reset with a permanent tilt.

From the 220 international proposals submitted, the jury selected the design by Viennese artist Klemens Wihlidal. It envisages that the statue, and a part of the plinth on which it stands, will be tilted to the right by 3.5°. The jury stated that the reason for their selection was the fact that the design made the City of Vienna’s attitude to Karl Lueger clear and also showed the current state of discussion. Both Karl Lueger as a person and the statue’s reception are (more than) a little unbalanced. The intervention breaks the vertical character of the monument and thus questions the myth of Karl Lueger as a Viennese father figure. The tilting is also indicative of the problems the City has in its dealings with its anti-Semitic past.

According to Wihlidal the transformation “…irritates the viewer. The monument becomes involved in turbulences intended to provoke the question: what is going to happen to it now? Contrary to the situation when a monument is pulled down, the tipping transforms the statue into a memorial.”

The working group and its supporters now demand that it be implemented. In a few weeks the design will be handed over to the City of Vienna at the City Hall. Thus the motion can be put by those responsible in the Vienna City Council before the summer break.

Negotiations are underway with the artists so that all the submitted proposals can be prepared for presentation on the website ( In addition a publication and an exhibition is planned for autumn 2010 / spring 2011.
Aharon: 19:40:50
one of the interesting things that come to mind, is that actually, making virtual elements in the public space, can do away with the need to even question consensus, because the physicality of things do not play..
stephen wright: 19:40:53
Like the basekamp website!! Tilted!!
BASEKAMP team: 19:42:26
^^ indeed Stephen!
BASEKAMP team: 19:42:50 =

/* Disorient me */

body.front {

  -webkit-transform: rotate(-3deg);

  -moz-transform: rotate(-3deg);

  transform: rotate(-3deg);

BASEKAMP team: 19:45:41
a serious joke
BASEKAMP team: 19:46:28
"the idea of art being a serious proposition is kinky"
stephen wright: 19:46:49
who said that?!
BASEKAMP team: 19:47:32
^^ ? i think Carl did -- slightly paraphrased
stephen wright: 19:48:09
"it doesn't have to be theater"
stephen wright: 19:48:43
we're having a blast already. And it might work!
BASEKAMP team: 19:48:49
if all i thought would come out of this is a negative hegelian dialectic 2.0, i wouldn;t be working this hard
Aharon: 19:49:06
what do u think makes it art even if it "works"??
stephen wright: 19:53:14
We've talked about participation, usership, the "built environment" as Scott nicely calls it. And we've done it in respect to a plausible type of artworld which we haven't explored at all before: a virtual-based one. But one which acknowledges it virtual status.
Carl Skelton: 19:59:52
stephen wright: 20:01:41
got dropped again
BASEKAMP team: 20:01:48
stephen wright: 20:01:49
can you call me back.......
BASEKAMP team: 20:01:53
calling u back stephen
Cecilia Guida: 20:02:08
scott i should go (here it's 2 a.m.). thanks. i'll talk/join you next tuesday. bye bye
BASEKAMP team: 20:02:18
see you soon Cecilia!
BASEKAMP team: 20:02:21
great to have you here smiley
BASEKAMP team: 20:02:23
BASEKAMP team: 20:02:27
Matthew Slaats: 20:02:32
Great talk -  Have to run off to vote for the school budget.   Hope to catch you next week.
BASEKAMP team: 20:02:36
speking of drupalare you still in Copenhagen?
BASEKAMP team: 20:03:17
we would like to come to the next Drupalcon in CPH, and may be good to hang out at Learning Site while there
Cecilia Guida: 20:03:25
great to join you, as usual! interesting presentation. good night!
BASEKAMP team: 20:04:11
BASEKAMP team: 20:04:26
Cecilia ^^ we can follow up about that
BASEKAMP team: 20:04:56
Learning site link:
Cecilia Guida: 20:04:56
yessss! for sure.
BASEKAMP team: 20:05:02
BASEKAMP team: 20:05:08
maybe a residency... we can talk smiley
Cecilia Guida: 20:05:45
a residency??!
Cecilia Guida: 20:05:51
why not...
Aharon: 20:07:27
java is very restrictive - isnt it?
Aharon: 20:08:02
i mean.. compair to perl or python.. even php come to think..
Aharon: 20:08:22
y is it written in java?
BASEKAMP team: 20:09:05
BTW.. it's coming soon so thought I'd throw this out there- --- FOSSCON is still looking for peopel to set up "tables" and present experimental and truly social projects on June 19th @ Rochester Institute of Technology in Rochester, NY.
stephen wright: 20:09:29
we need to talk about that scott
BASEKAMP team: 20:09:43
i mention in part because we're talking about Free and Open Source Software, and that Basekamp is giving the keynote speech (with close collaborators of course) smiley
BASEKAMP team: 20:09:50
Stephen yes
Aharon: 20:09:51
int link - ta scott
stephen wright: 20:10:19
I'm in Amsterdam tomorrow night -- maybe we can skype briefly around 6pm?
BASEKAMP team: 20:12:01
re Drupal & Moodle -
Aharon: 20:12:24
i c ur speakin there on foss scott..
Aharon: 20:12:30
nice smiley
BASEKAMP team: 20:13:42
they put my name but it is noy onl yme Aharon - bsekampp sa group + collaborators
BASEKAMP team: 20:13:55
less of a keynote than a key - chord? or something
Aharon: 20:13:57
hum.. loox like orily and ubuntu sponsor that..
alemcj" title="salemcj">salem collo-julin: 20:14:16
gotta go, y'all. thanks
Aharon: 20:14:21
well.. a key.. smiley aint too bad
Aharon: 20:14:26
Aharon: 20:14:32
ciao ya'all!
BASEKAMP team: 20:14:49
bi everyone!
BASEKAMP team: 20:15:25
See you next week!
Meg Frisch: 20:23:07
dance party?